daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

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Jan Lund Thomsen
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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by Jan Lund Thomsen » 28/12/2018 - 9:33

RKO doesn't have a blocked download button because it defeats the purpose of a distribution hub for free music. If someone doesn't like the idea of having their music made available for free download, they're more than welome to use patreon/bandcamp/iTunes/Spotify/etc. instead of submitting it to RKO/AR.

And if you want complete control, you could set up your own distribution channel. That's the beautiful thing about the internet - anyone can be their own publisher. :)

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by daXX » 28/12/2018 - 17:13

But free does not means "Do what you want with it".

Music has always it's rights. Most of the originals also copyrighted by gema etc.

You see what people do with the remixes. They generate clicks and make money with it on youtube or other platforms without asking for permission.

You think this is Ok?

And aslong as we have no possibilities to set a licence info, or disable download people handle it 'public domain' and youtube wants at least a proof that the music isnt published 'public domain'.

I think this is not what remixers really like when they find their remixes monatized by some indian kids channels.

I really think it's your obligation to save remixers and original authors rights... :nod:

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by Jan Lund Thomsen » 30/12/2018 - 8:12

RKO, like Triad MP3z before it, is a place where people can submit files for others to download and enjoy. That has always been made perfectly clear to everyone since the site was launched 18 years ago. So if you don't want to run the risk of someone using your remixes on their youtube channel after downloading them from RKO, the solution is very simple; Don't upload the tunes. It really is as simple as that.

At the risk of repeating myself, anyone who doesn't agree with the way that RKO is run is more than welcome to create their own distribution solution.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by daXX » 31/12/2018 - 2:22

:shock: So simple?

I thought your site is to enjoy for both sites... listeners and remixers. But now i understand how u guys work.

Therefor this thread should be closed before the discusion is running out of control.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by Jan Lund Thomsen » 02/01/2019 - 15:26

The vast majority of remixers do take great enjoyment in making their work freely available to the public on Remix.Kwed.Org, AmigaRemix.com and OCRemix.org - even if it means running the risk of having their work used on someones youtube video. You don't feel the same way, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But it's not going to change the way that RKO has operated since its inception, or how it will be run going forward.

That being said, RKO now has a text box that reiterates what I have always told people who have emailed me about using the tunes for various projects; It's good form to ask beforehand and to give proper attribution to the remixer and composer.

Again, it won't change anything - except that I'll have fewer emails to write. Of course, some people will still ignore the guidelines and do whatever they want.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by Ziphoid » 02/01/2019 - 16:12

Hey guys,

Yeah, as Jan stated in the last post and also daXX mentioned, these sites are here for both sides - the listeners and the arrangers. The idea behind these sites from the beginning have been that they should be a quick and easy path to get to enjoy remixes of various Amiga- and C64-music. We have never - nor will ever - try to encourage people to misuse tracks in a way that some people sadly are doing. What we HAVE been bad at is to explicitly express that on the sites, but now it is added more visibly to RKO and I've also added another paragraph in the footer of amigaremix.com. I'm sure we can add a similar text on remix64.com as well. However, no matter what we write, people will still misuse the trust you lay upon them by submitting your remixes to the different sites. I do get quite a few emails about this as well, in which I always reply that they should contact the arrangers for permission.

We have in no way the time or resources to hunt people down if they are misusing anything that has been released here, so the only thing we really can do is to do what we now have done - add a more visible disclaimer about the usage licenses of any tracks downloaded from here. I'll make it even more visible on amigaremix.com when I have some more time to spare to do so.

The main idea behind amigaremix.com (I'm not the original author of the site, mind you) has been just this, a simple way to share remixes to the public. This, I won't change. As Jan also said, most remixers are ok with this, but I guess that might also be because they haven't been put through the similar kind of "abuse" as you have had happen to your tracks, daXX, for which I'm sorry. I just don't see what we can do to change this, since people will always be people. Also, there surely are other platforms out there who has tackled this from a different angle to make it work for them, and I can't justify the time and effort it would take to build such a platform for this. :)
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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by daXX » 04/01/2019 - 20:25

John, that's the reason why i love you man. You listen to problems and you try to find ways. :worship:

And sorry to say but the two other guys should see you as an example.

Right, the sites got created to enjoy remixes and download them but time flies and things change.
Ago 18 years we did not had youtube with monetizing and stuff. The internets was very basic but nowadays it gets more and more complicated. To say "use it or leave" is just the worst answer you can give. And i am very sure, there will come more problems in future. The General Lawyer of the European Court also made a judgement for Kraftwerk last month. There will be strange times before us with music, remixes and using loops or samples!

So, yeah maybe other remixers don't have a problem when strangers making money on youtube (monetizing) with their remixes. I have a problem with it.
If this gets solved here with license informations etc, i am open to upload my new/refurbished remixes again to amigaremix.com.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LaLa » 07/01/2019 - 19:19

I like the new "copyright notice" on RKO (even if it's not called that and it's probably not even a legally binding one), but if you want to take it a step further, you could implement something similar to what Soundcloud is doing:

https://help.soundcloud.com/hc/en-us/ar ... ve-Commons

That is, at upload time allow the uploader to specify the exact type of copyright license he/she wants to use on a particular track, and then display the appropriate CC icons next to the track on the RKO listing. (And all the same would apply to Remix64.com, of course). For already uploaded tracks, set some blanket limited-use CC copyright.

This still won't prevent bad actors from stealing and misusing remixes for their own monetary gains, but at least remixers will have some protection on their tracks that have a chance to be used in takedown notices and/or in legal proceedings.

I agree with daXX, with the advent of monetized online publishing this has become a complicated issue since RKO first came online 18+ years ago, but I firmly believe that the responsibility of defending the copyright on your remixes falls on you, the remixer (and on the copyright owners of the original SIDs), not on RKO/Remix64.com.

I always operated under the principle that if something is uploaded on the Internet, it will get copied, period. (Even if it's behind a paywall.) If you don't like that and you're not willing to deal with the legal ramifications of defending your creations, don't upload tracks to RKO (or anywhere else for that matter). From this angle, I totally understand - and fully respect - daXX's decision to withdraw his tracks: you want to have full control over who-where-how gets to listen/download your tracks, and RKO is not a platform to allow that for you. Nor was it meant to be such a platform, and I understand that, too.

I have been enormously appreciative of RKO's role on the remix scene since it came to existence, because prior to RKO it was a giant pain trying to find SID remixes (remember the c64rmx mailing list?...) Even today it's nearly impossible to "find all SID remixes on YouTube/Soundcloud/whatever". RKO is pretty much the only site that I can rely on for this, and if I hear something on YT or elsewhere that is not on RKO, I gently ask the creators to consider uploading their remixes to RKO, too. Otherwise, they will just get lost in all the "noise". Here on RKO+Remix64.com you have an admittedly rather niche, but very dedicated and highly passionate audience who are even willing to give you honest feedback. To me, that's the real strength of this platform.

The way I look at it, RKO is the perfect manifestation of the unspoken demo scene mantra of "create for free, share for free, reuse for free"...

Anyway, I forgot what point I wanted to make with this post, but hopefully there are some hidden inside it. :D

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LMan » 10/01/2019 - 13:55

As a listener, I enjoy having tracks available for free. And I like having smileys on them so I can see what's good and what's not.

As a remixer, I enjoy having an audience. I enjoy being able to remix stuff based on "fair use", which also puts me in a humble position, since as a remixer/arranger I am not claiming to own any rights to the song. Whenever I got asked for permission of usage of one of my remixes, I always replied "fine with me, but ask Rob Hubbard etc. too". You can't seriously blame our sites for people using your stuff on YouTube.

daXX you try to push us to change our system, but we're happy with it. That's what Jan tried to tell you, if you think the way we handle it is outdated; that's okay but we like it as it is.

What I find really annoying is that instead of taking your stuff and moving on, you keep returning here, insinuating shady motives etc., kudos to John for not taking offense.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LMan » 10/01/2019 - 13:57

@Lala I love everything you stated above. You summed it up nicely.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LMan » 10/01/2019 - 14:11

Ohhh! OK. So you should hurry and open downloads here aswell. Or is this the special-friend offer you do here? ;)
https://www.remix64.com/track/sunspire/turrican-medley/
https://www.remix64.com/track/reyn-ouwehand/deflektor/
Mate your assumptions "special friend offer" etc are really starting to piss me off. I was SPECIFICALLY talking about remix.kwed.org. Show me a link to a track currently online at RKO that's missing a download button.

The Reyn track you posted was commercially published at c64audio.com, as a physical CD, with cleared rights and all.

The Sunspire track was released ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE FOR FREE, so if you click on the album cover, you'll eventually find a download link.

Btw, the German Remix Group asked me to list their stuff so people can vote for it, and for the little extra publicity. Anyone can ask me to list their non RKO album projects. I would definitely offer you to list your stuff too, but alas you don't like people voting for it. Btw listing the stuff and running the site is actual work that nobody pays me for.
Just to link 2 of hundreds of remixes without a download button!

Sry but thats why I feel deprived of my possibilities.
I decide if there's a download or not, not you. :)
Come on, you are intelligent. Why do you write such a stupid thing. RKO is a DOWNLOAD SITE so if you post there IT WILL HAVE A DOWNLOAD BUTTON. So you actually *can* decide: by uploading it there or not.
LMan you really should think about that block download button. It's not the biggest work behind that option.
People can still listen to it with your player on the site. Download just gives the possibility for those '>smart<' guys, who produce youtube videos with monetizing etc. But if you think your site or kwed or amigaremix should be 100% public domain, then i think you should delete those Album stuff here just to be fair to others.
Remix64 does not provide any downloads directly. As you know the download button will take you to either RKO or AR, and *there* you'll have the actual download button. Given that those platforms are, as mentioned countless of times now, intended to provide free downloads... well.

My offer still stands, I shall support you with news, you can put up an article if you like, I'll also list your stuff with sound previews if you like. But for the latter, you'd have to accept that Remix64 is a feedback community, and hence your stuff will be open for voting.

But seriously, cut it with the insinuations and taunts.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by daXX » 10/01/2019 - 23:17

LMan, Do you know "Ursache und Wirkung" ? I tried to start a normal discussion about and all i got was "use it or fuck off" answers.

Where did i taunt you ? I don't try to push anyone. I thought a forum is to discuss content. And nothing more we do here. No hate, no bashing. Just a normal discussion about some stuff.
Remix64 does not provide any downloads directly. As you know the download button will take you to either RKO or AR.
Yeah true. But i remember you wrote "The sites are created to download" and you even mentioned remix64 with it. But there were tracks who aren't able to download and at the same moment you tell me i have to accept a download because it's the site policy. I just found it a little unfair for others. Nothing more and nothing less. I am only responsible for what I write but not for what you interpret from it. So you should know that i never ever would taunt you.

But... The only reason i really understand is that you don't want to have streaming traffic that much. 1 download is better than 1000 plays. This i can fully understand and then i accept that you don't like a "not downloadable" button.

The idea from LaLa was already great. A license icon such as soundcloud would help already help much to proof on youtube when you don't give permissions to monetize or copy. :)
Whenever I got asked for permission of usage of one of my remixes, I always replied "fine with me, but ask Rob Hubbard etc. too". You can't seriously blame our sites for people using your stuff on YouTube.
Yeah. I also did exactly this because the original authors have the last word. But i never gave permissions to make monetizing. and when i asked to delete monetize, they deleted it and two weeks later it was again monetized. As you see, assholes everywhere.

When it comes to the votes you mentioned. I'm sure that we can agree at this point, that we will never agree each other at this point. And therefore this is not necessary to mention all the time.

However. You have now made your statement, that there will never be a license info in kwed (on amigaremix i'm not sure yet because i think john seems open for it). All is fine then. I will wait for a new amigaremix site. To be honest, the c64 remix and kwed site never really cared me much. So maybe we will get another option on amigaremix such as "Don't post on remix64". ;)

Nice evening all together or good night.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LMan » 11/01/2019 - 6:59

Thanks for the friendly reply. The problem with posting a license agreement would be that for a lot of tracks we don't even know who owns which rights. You couldn't for example make a remix of a commercially released game soundtrack and then put it up with a CC license: since you're not legally entitled to.

Imagine someone making a remix of one of your own compositions, puts it on the web for free, you'd maybe find that okay.
If the same guy decided to put a license on it, you'd probably not find that okay.

We all rely on the sites being in the domain of "fair use".

As for the "fuck off answers", I re-read the thread, and I urge you to do the same. You'll find that:
  • I've clearly stated RKO is a download platform and R64 accompanies it a feedback forum.
  • Jan tried to explain to you several times, POLITELY, what his site is about.
  • So it was "Sorry I don't want to change my site to suit you" rather than "fuck off", that's a huge difference.
Peace.

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by daXX » 11/01/2019 - 14:36

Thanks for the friendly reply.
Ur welcome! :)
The problem with posting a license agreement would be that for a lot of tracks we don't even know who owns which rights.
A license is != copyrights!

Cheers :cheers:

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Re: daXX no longer featured on AmigaRemix?

Post by LMan » 11/01/2019 - 15:25

:cheers:

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