Not likely to see the light of the RKO queue this is the 1st instance of a tune that im doing for something else.. where it goes silent theres a fair bit more thats going to be added .. though I have to admit i feel a little out of my depth writing orchestral music lol, its fine when you know the tune but original stuff? ... akkk .. anyway's everythings worth a go once right?.
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yes its short.
Fairlight
Well, I'm not to comment on your score infamous, as I'm not into symphonic orchestration myself 
... but I know a few things about making orchestral scores that I believe is important, if you want to fool the listener into findeing it belieavable.
First of, the orchestral library used has to be god damn well produced, so that it kan make as many articulations of the instruments as possible... something that I think is virtually impossible... most of the charm of an orchestra to me is, the incredible dynamics and playing techniques, which would be more or less impossible to sample anyways...
Having the right library is also worth nothing, if you do not know how the instruments are actually played... orchestral instruments are not played on keys, so you need to know how they work... when notes are cut, how fast they kan be played etc... in general it takes a great deal of research into the instruments themselves... just try and replicate a Bag Pipe on a synth... it's doable, but it requeres you to know that such an instrument has two drones, an octave apart, and a pipe with holes... that pipe also drones when you do not play on it, so an occational slip of the fingers make it jump to the lowest tone... giving it that "broken tone" so particular of a BagPipe...
All in all, it takes skills to make computerized orchestral scores... and on top of those mentioned, you also need to be prepared for a much more complicated arrangemnt scoring...
I'm not to delve into this very soon for sure! ... your first try is rather well though Infamous, but it does not fool me 
... in fact VERY few computer created orchestral scores fool me... there are always clear signs of samples in them...
Personally I believe, that true fantastic computer arranged symphonic scores won't be realizeable until physical modelling is progressed to incorporate a full set of believable orchestral instruments, and some of them might have to be played on virtual MIDI controllers mimicing the real ones...
Just my 2 cents.
... but I know a few things about making orchestral scores that I believe is important, if you want to fool the listener into findeing it belieavable.First of, the orchestral library used has to be god damn well produced, so that it kan make as many articulations of the instruments as possible... something that I think is virtually impossible... most of the charm of an orchestra to me is, the incredible dynamics and playing techniques, which would be more or less impossible to sample anyways...
Having the right library is also worth nothing, if you do not know how the instruments are actually played... orchestral instruments are not played on keys, so you need to know how they work... when notes are cut, how fast they kan be played etc... in general it takes a great deal of research into the instruments themselves... just try and replicate a Bag Pipe on a synth... it's doable, but it requeres you to know that such an instrument has two drones, an octave apart, and a pipe with holes... that pipe also drones when you do not play on it, so an occational slip of the fingers make it jump to the lowest tone... giving it that "broken tone" so particular of a BagPipe...
All in all, it takes skills to make computerized orchestral scores... and on top of those mentioned, you also need to be prepared for a much more complicated arrangemnt scoring...
I'm not to delve into this very soon for sure!
... your first try is rather well though Infamous, but it does not fool me ... in fact VERY few computer created orchestral scores fool me... there are always clear signs of samples in them...Personally I believe, that true fantastic computer arranged symphonic scores won't be realizeable until physical modelling is progressed to incorporate a full set of believable orchestral instruments, and some of them might have to be played on virtual MIDI controllers mimicing the real ones...
Just my 2 cents.
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
Well... I do not know about software versions of physical modelling... think that Tassman is such a thing!? ...
I do know of a few hardware ones though... namely the polyphonic KORG Z1... Impressive?... well it sounds pretty good, but it will not fool a pro... Another is Yamaha's VL synths which come as both an option and is also in several of their synths like the VL1, VL70m, MU100R and EX5R... I've got the EX5R, and I'm pretty damn impressed by it's sound... the only bad thing is, that it's monophonic, so it's only really good for instruments that are generally monophonic, like Reeds, Pipes, Brass... and stuff like Violins etc... it also does strings, but for monophonic use, it's basically useless, and the KORG Z1 is the solution to that.
One thing to mention though is, that without some sort of breath controller, you do not really get that dynamic and organic feel of the wind instruments, but if you do, it can sound so real, I canot hear the diference to a normal instrument, and the modelled one... good enough for me for sure. It's incredibly expressive!!! (The flute in my Action Biker remix was in fact done with a breath controler, and a VL70m)
But if we are to have the processing power to do a full symphonic orchestra in real time, we'll have to wait still, or spend a f****** lot of money on Yamaha gear!
... Just imagine having a seperate engine for every violin player in the orchestra... not to mention the rest...
Still you can get pretty convincing with samples, but you are limited in expression if you want to sound real.... but with so many compositions in the world today made with libraries, I wonder if people are forgetting the real sound of an orchestra...
and now that we are talking orchestration, personaly I'm a bit biased at this orchestral usage in todays games and film... it seems that many regard symphonic music as some sort of "higher artform", that in itself is higher rated than "ordinary" music... I find that silly, but usually even here on RKO/Remix64 it seems to me, that orchestral scores very often get high rates, as if everybody prefers them!?... I'm to say, a bit tired of hearing orchestral music in near to god damn every game or film these days... I miss the good old C64 days, where the composers were much more free, and things was wildly creative... why does every RPG game absolutely HAVE to use only orchestral scores?... it's possible to make bombastic, frightening, tensioning etc. music with synth sounds also... and I find it a pitty that this is not used more.... I remember one game though, that really was creative musically in an RPG game, namely the game "Planescape Torment"... that was a gorgeous mixture of both orchestral sounds but also synth sounds... really pleasing to listen to.
But again... if I got my will every time, this world would look RADICALLY different!
I do know of a few hardware ones though... namely the polyphonic KORG Z1... Impressive?... well it sounds pretty good, but it will not fool a pro... Another is Yamaha's VL synths which come as both an option and is also in several of their synths like the VL1, VL70m, MU100R and EX5R... I've got the EX5R, and I'm pretty damn impressed by it's sound... the only bad thing is, that it's monophonic, so it's only really good for instruments that are generally monophonic, like Reeds, Pipes, Brass... and stuff like Violins etc... it also does strings, but for monophonic use, it's basically useless, and the KORG Z1 is the solution to that.
One thing to mention though is, that without some sort of breath controller, you do not really get that dynamic and organic feel of the wind instruments, but if you do, it can sound so real, I canot hear the diference to a normal instrument, and the modelled one... good enough for me for sure. It's incredibly expressive!!! (The flute in my Action Biker remix was in fact done with a breath controler, and a VL70m)
But if we are to have the processing power to do a full symphonic orchestra in real time, we'll have to wait still, or spend a f****** lot of money on Yamaha gear!
... Just imagine having a seperate engine for every violin player in the orchestra... not to mention the rest...Still you can get pretty convincing with samples, but you are limited in expression if you want to sound real.... but with so many compositions in the world today made with libraries, I wonder if people are forgetting the real sound of an orchestra...
and now that we are talking orchestration, personaly I'm a bit biased at this orchestral usage in todays games and film... it seems that many regard symphonic music as some sort of "higher artform", that in itself is higher rated than "ordinary" music... I find that silly, but usually even here on RKO/Remix64 it seems to me, that orchestral scores very often get high rates, as if everybody prefers them!?... I'm to say, a bit tired of hearing orchestral music in near to god damn every game or film these days... I miss the good old C64 days, where the composers were much more free, and things was wildly creative... why does every RPG game absolutely HAVE to use only orchestral scores?... it's possible to make bombastic, frightening, tensioning etc. music with synth sounds also... and I find it a pitty that this is not used more.... I remember one game though, that really was creative musically in an RPG game, namely the game "Planescape Torment"... that was a gorgeous mixture of both orchestral sounds but also synth sounds... really pleasing to listen to.
But again... if I got my will every time, this world would look RADICALLY different!
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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To be honest, I'm not too crazy about Orchestral versions of C64 Tunes or remixes for that matter.
However I do appreciate the effort that goes into producing them.
Right now I'm listening to this track through my headphones and the overall effect is that it was recorded in a large room, and I'm not sure if that is the intended effect.
I like how it starts with the solo and the other instruments are low in the background as if the orchestra is supporting the soloist, and than the entire orchestra gets into it with each section supporting the entire piece.
Very nicely done and I like it.
Razmo: Did you see the clip I posted of Jarre playing a Digital Saxaphone? I shouldnt say playing really, I dont even have the words to describe what he was doing with it.
However I do appreciate the effort that goes into producing them.
Right now I'm listening to this track through my headphones and the overall effect is that it was recorded in a large room, and I'm not sure if that is the intended effect.
I like how it starts with the solo and the other instruments are low in the background as if the orchestra is supporting the soloist, and than the entire orchestra gets into it with each section supporting the entire piece.
Very nicely done and I like it.
Razmo: Did you see the clip I posted of Jarre playing a Digital Saxaphone? I shouldnt say playing really, I dont even have the words to describe what he was doing with it.
d[-.-]b (+[___]x)d(>_<)b 52656d697836342e636f6d2073696d706c7920726f636b732120
Thanks for the comments guy's.
The reverb was the last thing that i put in before that it sounded VERY plain, it was quite amazing how very little processing or eq'ing that i had to do, merely changing the volumes on the instruments being played themselves. the 2nd section is coming along quite nicely and though again i admit i still feel like a fish right out of water (the want to just drop a deep fat breakbeat in there is sometimes incredibly overwhelming heh) it will hopefully be heard in someones production sometime soon
The reverb was the last thing that i put in before that it sounded VERY plain, it was quite amazing how very little processing or eq'ing that i had to do, merely changing the volumes on the instruments being played themselves. the 2nd section is coming along quite nicely and though again i admit i still feel like a fish right out of water (the want to just drop a deep fat breakbeat in there is sometimes incredibly overwhelming heh) it will hopefully be heard in someones production sometime soon
Analog X:
Was that clip the one where he's playing alongside someone else playing a real shakuhachi flute?
Actually you can get quite a lot of different MIDI controllers these days, also some very obscure ones... I've recently seen a MIDI harp... then there are MIDI guitars, accordion, violin, sax, flute etc... and then there is all the wondrous ones... recently seen a new one presentet by Michel Geiss actually (Jarre's fellow gear developer fropm the past albums)... something that looks like a tube that is grabbed at both ends with handles, strange buttons for all fingers and the ability to "twist" it (generating continous controller data)... it even senses how you move the darn thing in the air, and sends controller data for that as well... a really inovative and creative controller.... wonder how it feels to play it
Infamous:
Yeah... in orchestral scores the instruments should ideally be dry... then each and every instrument placed in the stereo field, and ultimately the whole thing should be run through ONE verb to give it all a uniform environment ambience... alone the sounds are pretty dull
Was that clip the one where he's playing alongside someone else playing a real shakuhachi flute?
Actually you can get quite a lot of different MIDI controllers these days, also some very obscure ones... I've recently seen a MIDI harp... then there are MIDI guitars, accordion, violin, sax, flute etc... and then there is all the wondrous ones... recently seen a new one presentet by Michel Geiss actually (Jarre's fellow gear developer fropm the past albums)... something that looks like a tube that is grabbed at both ends with handles, strange buttons for all fingers and the ability to "twist" it (generating continous controller data)... it even senses how you move the darn thing in the air, and sends controller data for that as well... a really inovative and creative controller.... wonder how it feels to play it
Infamous:
Yeah... in orchestral scores the instruments should ideally be dry... then each and every instrument placed in the stereo field, and ultimately the whole thing should be run through ONE verb to give it all a uniform environment ambience... alone the sounds are pretty dull
Last edited by Razmo on 16/06/2007 - 9:50, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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.. although it's tempting to try and make it sound like it's being played in a concert hall: but for orchestral recorded music like film soundtracks, that doesn't actually happen, and the music feels much more powerful than "I'm sitting in an audience listening".
Chris
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I agree with Razmo that it seems to many that orchestral scores is a "higher artform". Like "this is real music, not something a teen threw together in a tracker/FL over a cup of coffee".
Maybe that why it's considered higher artform, because it's harder to quickly get good results.
This is also the case in films, I miss Harold Faltermayers synthy music in films, Beverly Hills cop, Running man etc. Cooler music in the 80s. Easily memorable tunes.
And I also miss games music with more melodic, electronic music. But not the kind of hard rock/techno-crap in racing games.
Also I've made some music for casual games and this genre doesn't want memorable tunes, it just want "something in the background" and to set the mood. Many games have orchestral music also.
Down with orchestral! No, seriously, orchestral tunes can be awesome but they are tending to being overused commercially for some strange reason. Like "you can never go wrong with orchetral" when music desicions are made. And nowadays many musicians seems to be specializing in this particular style. I think (hope) it's a fashinon which will fade, but what do I know?
I'm no classical/orchestral musician but I feel you can convince about 99% of regular people with a computerized version of a classical tune which sholud be sufficient for most productions.
I saw a test on Discovery I think, someone did to a "real" classical composer and he couldn't tell the difference. It was a well known piece played in different styles, he liked the one of the computerized versions best because of the particular style it was played in.
Maybe that why it's considered higher artform, because it's harder to quickly get good results.
This is also the case in films, I miss Harold Faltermayers synthy music in films, Beverly Hills cop, Running man etc. Cooler music in the 80s. Easily memorable tunes.
And I also miss games music with more melodic, electronic music. But not the kind of hard rock/techno-crap in racing games.
Also I've made some music for casual games and this genre doesn't want memorable tunes, it just want "something in the background" and to set the mood. Many games have orchestral music also.
Down with orchestral! No, seriously, orchestral tunes can be awesome but they are tending to being overused commercially for some strange reason. Like "you can never go wrong with orchetral" when music desicions are made. And nowadays many musicians seems to be specializing in this particular style. I think (hope) it's a fashinon which will fade, but what do I know?
I'm no classical/orchestral musician but I feel you can convince about 99% of regular people with a computerized version of a classical tune which sholud be sufficient for most productions.
I saw a test on Discovery I think, someone did to a "real" classical composer and he couldn't tell the difference. It was a well known piece played in different styles, he liked the one of the computerized versions best because of the particular style it was played in.
Instant Remedy:
Well... of course I have to agree with you fully! ... Of course orchestral music has it's own right... but mainly I believe its because people have been "brainwashed" into feeling that orchestral is the right music for epic games and films... it's a thing brought down into our suibconciousness from ages back, when the world had no synths at all... that is probably also why they seem to go best with film about things of the past I guess... but still, you can get good music using synth sounds this way anyways... just listen to the tune playing in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf falls into the pit with that fire thing... really moody synth stuff...
But I with you on the topic of some people believing that orchestral scoring is something you "grow into"... like it's some "stamp" given to you, that you are now among the "initiated and learned"... to me orchestral music is just another genre, that I respect just as well as other genres.. only problem is that it's hard to fool me using samples... just like it's hard to fool me trying to emulate the real SID chip.
My alltime favourite SID composer, Hubbard really disappointed me when I read that he now sees orchestral music as the only way to go.. to me orchestral music gets boring in the length because it's always the same type of sound... same instruments over and over again... to me it's an overrated artform, but hey! It's just MY view
Looking at the piano playing hubbard on those BIT Live videos made me think... hmmm... boring really
Boring because it's "just" a simple piano sound, and nothing else... I miss the music he did back then... that style... just like I miss Jarre's older stuff.... but then again, I know how I would hate to be locked into something of the past, so I understand them well anyway.
Well... of course I have to agree with you fully!
... Of course orchestral music has it's own right... but mainly I believe its because people have been "brainwashed" into feeling that orchestral is the right music for epic games and films... it's a thing brought down into our suibconciousness from ages back, when the world had no synths at all... that is probably also why they seem to go best with film about things of the past I guess... but still, you can get good music using synth sounds this way anyways... just listen to the tune playing in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf falls into the pit with that fire thing... really moody synth stuff...But I with you on the topic of some people believing that orchestral scoring is something you "grow into"... like it's some "stamp" given to you, that you are now among the "initiated and learned"... to me orchestral music is just another genre, that I respect just as well as other genres.. only problem is that it's hard to fool me using samples... just like it's hard to fool me trying to emulate the real SID chip.
My alltime favourite SID composer, Hubbard really disappointed me when I read that he now sees orchestral music as the only way to go.. to me orchestral music gets boring in the length because it's always the same type of sound... same instruments over and over again... to me it's an overrated artform, but hey! It's just MY view
Looking at the piano playing hubbard on those BIT Live videos made me think... hmmm... boring really
Boring because it's "just" a simple piano sound, and nothing else... I miss the music he did back then... that style... just like I miss Jarre's older stuff.... but then again, I know how I would hate to be locked into something of the past, so I understand them well anyway.
Last edited by Razmo on 16/06/2007 - 10:24, edited 3 times in total.
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
And I have to add, that this "grown up music" adhere not only to orchestral compositions... I see this tendency with probably about every type of music involving LIVE music (rock tunes plyed on live guitars, bass, drums and stuff)... I find it strange that in 2007 many people still think that electronic music is something where you just press the BIG RED BUTTON, and alll conjures itself up... it's a pile of crap having this view on things One of the things I like about electronic music is, that these instruments can do so much more than any real instrument.... real accoustic instruments can play just one sound generally, and that's it... synths can do wondrous timbres and create the most wonderful soundscapes you would never be able to do with anything but synths.... it's very creative and hjas vast potential to always grow and change into new stuff...
But who knows.... maybe in 1000 years, and we ourselves are the target of history films and games, people may have come to see synths as what most people today see orchestral instruments as... who knows
One of the things I like about electronic music is, that these instruments can do so much more than any real instrument.... real accoustic instruments can play just one sound generally, and that's it... synths can do wondrous timbres and create the most wonderful soundscapes you would never be able to do with anything but synths.... it's very creative and hjas vast potential to always grow and change into new stuff...But who knows.... maybe in 1000 years, and we ourselves are the target of history films and games, people may have come to see synths as what most people today see orchestral instruments as... who knows
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
Guess I have to add also, that I in no way have a problem with orchestral music... It's very powerful and majestic and really good to set the mood... again because we have been raised into thinking that the type of music is the only workable to set specific moods.... I admit, that if I was to play an RPG game, and it fired off kraftwerk like beats it would totaly destroy the mood of the game... but again, this is because we are used to the fact that orchestral music is used in these types of games/films... What I miss is a bit more inventiveness... in fact if you blend orchestral music with synth sounds you can create some really interresting moody music as well, that will definitely suit also RPG games and adventure movies... The "Planescape Torment" game is such an example... it has orchestral compositions but is filled with weird sinister sounds FX and synth drones etc....
Most orchestral music gets it's "power" from the reverberant environment it is set into... all instruments have some amount of that verb put on it, and there is no reason why synth sounds could not do the same and create some interresting music useable also in adventure and RPG...
Most orchestral music gets it's "power" from the reverberant environment it is set into... all instruments have some amount of that verb put on it, and there is no reason why synth sounds could not do the same and create some interresting music useable also in adventure and RPG...
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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Instant Remedy:
I'm sure you are right in that point... especially when you consider a whole violin/viola section... having so many "oscillators" play the same, but all slightly out of tune and with slight varying articulations you are certain to get some fat string sections... but using expressive controllers for synth sounds and playing the same individually for a synth track, should do the same effect then... just guess nobody has tried it that much then... funny thought though.... having "sync Lead section" or a "TB-303 quartet" etc. etc. Guess that it would have to be simple sounds used though, or the whole thing would get out of control ... but a nice idear anyway.
I would sum that the reason orchestral music seem so powerful is a combination of it being combined of many sound sources as you say in addition to the very expressive nature of real instruments (they sound alive and organic... not sterile as many synth sounds) and the sheer power of combining it all in a huge reverberant space... in addition to this most likely also the arrangement dynamics... but again; this should be possible with synths too... wonder why I've not heard anybody try this before
And yeah... sorry for the off topic Infamous... at least it's Orchestra related
I'm sure you are right in that point... especially when you consider a whole violin/viola section... having so many "oscillators" play the same, but all slightly out of tune and with slight varying articulations you are certain to get some fat string sections... but using expressive controllers for synth sounds and playing the same individually for a synth track, should do the same effect then... just guess nobody has tried it that much then... funny thought though.... having "sync Lead section" or a "TB-303 quartet" etc. etc. Guess that it would have to be simple sounds used though, or the whole thing would get out of control
... but a nice idear anyway.I would sum that the reason orchestral music seem so powerful is a combination of it being combined of many sound sources as you say in addition to the very expressive nature of real instruments (they sound alive and organic... not sterile as many synth sounds) and the sheer power of combining it all in a huge reverberant space... in addition to this most likely also the arrangement dynamics... but again; this should be possible with synths too... wonder why I've not heard anybody try this before
And yeah... sorry for the off topic Infamous... at least it's Orchestra related
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).