The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Talk freely about the scene, the world of remixing, or anything off-topic unsuitable for the "Fun Forum".
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

Wanna say a couple of things on this.

Firstly, about the remixes, they have for sure evolved, from the classic re-do of the orig SIDs using modern day gear, beefing it all up and what not, adding modern dance beats and what have you, to the much more 'evolved' stuff when the essence of a track is kept but the style and instrumentation and beats are COMPLETELY morphed! Those are what I really love now, because everything else has 'been done' so really you have but two choices now for something new, either remix very unknown rare obscure stuff which doesn't really capture anyone's imagination because the nostalgia factor is not there for most listeners, or, remix in a completely new way/style the old classics.

Like the vocal remixes (Visa Röster etc), orchestral remixes (C64 orchestra etc), acoustic remixes, and also electronic remixes which completely morph the orig style into something utterly new, like for example Peter W - Spy vs Spy (Instrumental Version).mp3.

Now, secondly I want to say something in response to what Analog-X64 said:
Analog-X64 wrote:Look at how many members we have here, who have joined back in 2002 and have 5-10 posts and drop in once every 2-3 years and disappear? Those are not the ones who will keep the scene alive.
You're SO WRONG in that statement Analog-X64 :) I'll allaborate... I am one of those types who joined the forum, didn't find much (other than the music of course), read a few posts, wrote a few, then never came back again for like 8 years (ignore my joined date I lost my password this is like my 3rd account here, again a symptom of not coming regular because you forget your login hehe) MAYBE popping in once every 2 or 3 years (like now) to have a quick look see if anything new or interesting (never is) then vanish again for years. So in that bit you are right, but in the rest you are wrong. The 'scene' is SO MUCH broader than I think the 'core remixers' who I'm guessing are the demographic who frequent this forum? realise!

I have found the C64 remix sound everywhere! In so many bands, signed and un-signed, gigs I've been to, albums I've bought, un-signed music I've downloaded, etc, also in my own music. I have never submitted a remix to a remix site such as this, but my god I have made TONS of C64'esque music which could loosely be described as C64 remix. Jammed it, recorded it, gigged it, etc'ed it. And I am part of a big bulk of musicians who do that but never put anything on a remix site or even read any remix forums.

So the 'scene' is not dead and dieing at all, it is evolving, and in the way it is evolving it can feel like a death of sorts but it is more of a skin shed than a death. In my opinion :)

It's like, dunno, case in point would be something like do a search for machine supremacy on this forum or in the remix MP3 archive, and you basically find nada, but they're like one of THE most popular C64 orientated remix bands in the world (when they're doing C64 stuff I mean ofc).

Also, when you say keeping the scene alive do you mean remixers or consumers of remixes? Or both? I mean, I have bought virtually every remix CD, and downloaded virtually every (good) remix mp3 off this site (and all others), and I been to most of the live gigs, bit lives etc, and given BIG donations to those events too to help them happen, so I'm a wet dream of a remix 'consumer'. But, as you state, I don't visit the site, I don't read or post on it bar once every 3 years with a new account, I don't submit my remixes to it, etc, yet, surely I am keeping the scene alive in the best way, as a consumer of its product?

Just trying to throw that angle into the mix :) Hope you see my point hehe, I could have said it in one single line but I kinda elaborated a lot sorry 'bout dat hehe. One line ver: your view is way narrow my friend!
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

Excellent feedback Hacky, but don't forget the GAMERS. To put an even more positive spin on it, it's broader than I think even you suspect, if you limit fandom to musicians.

I cannot mix or compose my way out of a box (well, yet at least, and I do have a music background so I might be able to some day), but I know there are many songs that have absolutely NOT been done -at all- from a gamer's perspective, at least not when I look them up on SIDFind or RKO, etc.

The remix community you describe is very selective if they think it's "all been done before" because for pure nostalgia factor there are many "missing" remixes out there. There are 36,081 SIDs in the HSVC, and multiple tracks for many, but we have over 100 Last Ninja Remixes, and "only" 2703 remixes now at SlayRadio.

I've been trying to make this point without angering anyone here, but I think that so much attention is on the "gods of SID" that musicians respect, that what is nostalgic to regular ol' C64 gamers (and I have to think they make up a significant part of the casual listeners at places like SLAY Radio), have seen many of their titles left out in the cold.

Sure, some might be crude, unpolished or unremarkable SID tracks, but I recall putting all the tracks that the demo from EA's "Adventure Construction Set" would allow on a cassette tape, and listening to them over and over. Same with Archon I & II. Same with all of the Ultima tracks I could gather. Same with corny SID remakes of pop songs at the time. :P

Barely a Hubbard or a Galway to be found in my nostalgic SID collection. And I was still loving it.

And I know it's not just me.

IGN Games has a Retrocity podcast, and what do I hear a month or two back but an entire episode dedicated to Archon I & II for the C64, complete with SID intros.

But how many Archon remixes are listed when I type "Archon" as a keyword at Remix64?

ONE, in 2000, by Plough. That's it! Now Archon and Adept (II) are both short, but combined in a medley they'd make interesting fodder for a remix, or so you'd think. Not significantly less to work with together than, say, Bruce Lee.

And how is it that Mayhem in Monsterland, a game many consider the best C64 platformer ever made, with a great-sounding SID in its own right, never inspired more than perhaps one (Current Rating 65%) remix back in 2001?

Not even a single medley of Jumpman and Jr. tunes? I can think of quite a few good-selling EA games with catchy SID melodies and no remixes (or if there are I can't find any), like Mail order Monsters, Realm of Impossibility, and the aforementioned ACS.

So while yes, Comic Bakery has been done 8 ways to Sunday, it has most certainly not been "all done before"....

I have posted requests in the suggest a remix forum here. When all of those are done or have more than one remix from 5 years ago....then I will agree that it's all been done.

Until then, my nostalgia-filled heart hopes that remixers with talent and skills far beyond what I could muster will not give up the fight, resigned to growing old and gray, maybe pumping out another Human Race or Wizball remix.

I love the C64 remixes, and I love C64 gaming, and I'd like to see the two meet more fully before people call it done and over and say there are no more SIDs to remix anymore just because every Galway, Hubbard and Daglish tune has been done.


How awesome would it be if I could introduce games like Switchblade, Below the Root, or Realm of Impossibility and feel confident that EVERY TIME there was a remix to tie my blog posts to?


How I WISH you were correct in that it's all been done, Hacky!

In the meantime I will continue to evangelize C64 gaming via emulators, and redirect more folks here to enjoy the awesome remixes, even if I don't get my requests filled -- it's all good stuff! :D
Last edited by RobinsonMason on 21/03/2009 - 9:35, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

either remix very unknown rare obscure stuff which doesn't really capture anyone's imagination because the nostalgia factor is not there for most listeners
To follow up, and since my last post was way too long already, here's a text grab of the postings of just some of the games I've reviewed on my blog, many of which have no remixes or maybe just one old one from 2000, followed by my list of requests. A couple might not have SIDs, but most should. And there are many more games I want to review -- just haven't had the time yet since starting up last year.

So I hope you can see...from a gamer's perspective...hearing how the C64 Remix community has "done it all" is extremely frustrating and a depressing notion. Again, if you mean "Done all Galway"...well, that makes sense. Or "done all that the Remix community deems worthy of doing"...then that's a different perspective, I guess. It makes me cry a little for us gamers who love those ignored melodies of old. :(

Also, maybe you are right, and "most listeners" are C64 Remixers....in that case, they feed the Comic Bakery beast and listen to it, and feed it again, and listen again.... But I have to think I'm not the only gamer who listens. Most gamers and non-remixers are probably just too intimidated to post here, or feel they can contribute nothing. I will speak for them here. Haha.

I can only hope my tip-of-the-iceberg list here inspires some to prove preconceptions wrong!

Here's to growing the C64 remix community with more nostalgic tunes of yore! :cheers:

Double Sphere - Shoot...Score!
Switchblade - there is not even an Amiga Remix of this tune, and it's by Ben Daglish!? :shock: http://www.slayradio.org/sid_info.php?s ... hblade.sid
The Bod Squad: If Only it Wasn't So Tough!
Lucasfilm's Habitat for the C64 - Predecessor to World of Warcraft and the Sims
Necromancer
Mayhem in Monsterland
Load Up Your M.U.L.E., and Prepare for Fun!
C64 Text Adventure #3: Crime Time
Games Worth Remembering: Realm Of Impossibility
A C64 Game For Girls: Dance Fantasy (SID in dance playback)
Dizzy, Forgotten Hero of the C64?
Video Walk-Thru: Below the Root
Blueprint
Dizzy - Prince of the Yolkfolk!
Omidar
Smash Out
Zynaps
Emlyn Hughes International Soccer - Composer: Barry Leitch
Pool of Radiance - Composer: David Warhol
Jumpman & Jumpman Jr. - Composer: Randy Glover
Spellbound Dizzy - Composer: Allister Brimble
Mayhem In Monsterland - Composer: Steve Rowlands
Project Stealth Fighter Composer: Ken Lagace
Power Drift - Composer: Dave Lowe
Law of the West - Composer: Ed Bogas
Mail Order Monsters - Composer: Unknown
Tass Times in Tonetown - Composer: Dave Warhol & Russell Lieblich
Martin Walker's Citadel (Infamous at the C64 Remix Forum has suggested that he may have something on the way!)
Telengard - Telengard's first track is a particularly crude and retro SID from this very early C64 RPG.
Master of Magic
More tracks from Ultima III and IV
Spelunker
Adventure Construction Set
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

RobinsonMason...

Very good points! You're so right indeed too! And when I hear your words it makes me really excited about the future of the scene. If there are loads of new as yet un-remixed/re-done game tunes out there in the ether, then that is REALLY good news for the scene!

Also maybe demo tunes too, some of those little demos people made in the front of hacked/copied games, or just demos for the sake of making a demo, the music in those was REALLY cool sometimes and would be great if more of those were re-done using todays tech etc.

Thanx for reply :)
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Analog-X64 »

I dont know.. I visited the site and it all looks very Obscure ;) Cheers :cheers: on the Re-Launch.

Oops... Wrong Thread.. can someone move this. :)
Last edited by Analog-X64 on 21/03/2009 - 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by DHS »

Just some sparse thought...

Some time (years) ago there was a similar topic about "obscure sids" from demos. No one was remixing them.

Some took the chance (as me) and found some hidden gold.

Remixing popular SIDs is (was) more rewarding for the remixer, because popular sids are favs of listeners *and* remixers themselves.

On the other side, demo sids were more... intriguing and gave the possibility to drive your remix to more experimental styles.

Said that, as some may have noticed, i don't remix c64 tracks often as i used to.
This is due for a couple of reasons.
- You could work your best to make a great remix, containing some innovative elements, have it sounding very good, only to see ppl don't give a damn about it (check All Time C64 charts for "Paperboy" and you'll have a pretty clear image of what i'm talking about).
- Remixing is, in one way or another, to constrain your creativity to the original: you can whatever style you want but, of course, it must be a remix of something already existing. Lately, after some years of really low will-to-do-music, i found myself more interested in making original stuff: maybe i don't have all the audience i get remixing, but the results are much more satisfying for myself.
- I don't know, maybe it's due to the fact i'm not here as i used to be, but i feel the community has lost 'something' those last years. There's no more the "drive" that moved us back in the times. Maybe is assuefation, i don't know. And, of course, this statemente is higly subjective.
- I think basically Chris is right: cannibalization of sids (part of) is a good way to get to a bigger audience and (maybe) going commercial. Problem is (with me, of course), every time i tried that it was *never* understood. Instead i even got harsh reactions. Basically, it's ME or THEM. Since i'm such an egotistic guy, it must be THEM :). So, i don't see a point to keep trying do that and, at the same time, having that audience listening to my work.

That's.... basically all of it.
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

This thread's responses inspired a podcast http://c64walkabout.com/2009/03/21/c64w ... ixing.aspx -- I hope it inspires more remixing!
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

Cool pod cast I enjoyed it a lot :)
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

Glad you liked it Hacky! The more I listened to those tracks while putting it together, the more I became convinced that at least a few of them would make for killer remixes. :D
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

/agree

Was really cool to hear them in your podcast I'd not heard them before and there was at least 2 which would make killer remixes imo!

What sid player you used btw, it sounded really good!
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

Hacky wrote:/agree

Was really cool to hear them in your podcast I'd not heard them before and there was at least 2 which would make killer remixes imo!

What sid player you used btw, it sounded really good!
I used XMPlay with the SID plugin and I must confess to using some reverb to give more depth as well. :P http://support.xmplay.com/

Someone here or elsewhere recommended XMplay because I was having issues with tracks (subtunes) not playing sequentially using WinAmp's SID plugin. I've been using it ever since.

The SIDs were output to WAV (using XMPlay - and it keeps the reverb and other equalizer settings on, which is nice) and then imported into Audacity, then exported to MP3 with my voice audio track for uploading.

I use XMPlay with some added reverb to build MP3 CDs that I can play in my car, or to use with my iPod. I think the standard SIDs usually sound too "naked" but I can understand purists who would disagree.
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

thanx for info :)
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by Hacky »

omg that player is so shit! hehe
just tried it, i was looking for an alternative coz the new ver of winamp doesn't support the sid plugin anymore and it crashes winamp, but that player you said it's impossible to get it to select the track it just, well hard to explain but basically it's useless :-| dunno how u got it to behave but i can't seem to :(

I have sidplay ofc but that has 1000000000000000 options and no explanation of them, the classic geek thing of not even being able to comprehend MAYBE we don't all have electronic sound PhDs! /sigh

back to the drawing board with me then hehe /weep
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by FFRenzy »

Hacky wrote:omg that player is so shit! hehe
just tried it, i was looking for an alternative coz the new ver of winamp doesn't support the sid plugin anymore and it crashes winamp, but that player you said it's impossible to get it to select the track it just, well hard to explain but basically it's useless :-| dunno how u got it to behave but i can't seem to :(

I have sidplay ofc but that has 1000000000000000 options and no explanation of them, the classic geek thing of not even being able to comprehend MAYBE we don't all have electronic sound PhDs! /sigh

back to the drawing board with me then hehe /weep
If you want to skip to a subtune in XMPlay, rightclick the "next track" button.
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Re: The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

Post by RobinsonMason »

I just drag the slider bar and it proceeds to the next track (no, not very accurate!) --- the main reason I like it is for MP3 and WAV output -- it will automatically output the tracks with little effort on my part, and will apply effects like reverb and the equalizer.

For just playing SIDs I usually associate them with WinAmp, but WinAmp is buggy lately and crashes half the time I try to play a SID....at least XMPlay is stable....and I like dragging and dropping SIDs to the playlist and having SID after SID play and see which ones are active.

I don't want to mess with a command line for my music player (SIDPlay). I get enough of that at work with Linux and Cisco and whatnot, no time for DOS commands over a decade after MS-DOS "died" in my leisure time... :P :duh:
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