Annual rant by your friend dhs...

[Romeo Knight]

But ain't that the world of reviewing in general? I mean say a reviewer of a top audio magazine reviews an album the chances are that he/she is not able to play all the instruments involved and is not able to provide technical details as to what you would wish - He would generally go on the feel of the track and to what parts he enjoyed or didn't.
<snip>
You absolutely do not need to know what goes into making it to either like or dislike it.

You're right, but you and exo didn't get my point at all. It's of course not about playing an instrument. Trivial. It's about credibility.

Shouting:"I don't like it. It doesn't generate any feelings for me." is absolutely ok. It's subjective but this is the only way to judge about any kind of art instantly and instinctively. That doesn't offend me as long as a reasonable rating comes with it. Naturally these kind of shouts most times are given by non-remixers.
Some shout "I don't like this" and give a "good" while others shout "Great stuff" and give the same rating. Obviously both of them didn't say everything what they had in mind.
But for me everything becomes really ridiculous when non-musicians/non-remixing people try to technically rate remixes of musical genres they neither obviously ever dealt with nor can possibly "understand". (I guess you get the point. ) Leave it, don't download, don't listen is my best advice for those.
It's like a vegetarian who wants to tell me how to dress my schnitzel.

That said, I think the main problem of the system is that the subjective shout is combined with an absolutely objective rating, a percentage.
And I think this rating should only be given if you judge by emotional appeal, production value and innovation at least and not emotional appeal alone. And yes, musical skill is an issue, too, but that is included in production value.

[oj oscillation]

sorry, dhs, i wrote a reply but somehow i was logged off and the preview button messed it all up. i`m too fat right now to answer again.

RK wrote:

But for me everything becomes really ridiculous when non-musicians/non-remixing people try to technically rate remixes of musical genres they neither obviously ever dealt with nor can possibly "understand"

then only a style-experiencer has the right to judge the remix ?
i`ve heard a lot of styles/genres and it has nothing to do with "i tried them myself or understood them fully", just to get an idea what is which style. it`s part of the nature that everyone catagorizes specific performances.
in the common sense it gets its name. characteristics of these styles aren`t just hearable for musicians. so non musicians get their catalog as well.
RK wrote:

It's like a vegetarian who wants to tell me how to dress my schnitzel

you can either take their advice or leave it.should be no prob at all. your decission.

[tas]

But ain't that the world of reviewing in general? I mean say a reviewer of a top audio magazine reviews an album the chances are that he/she is not able to play all the instruments involved and is not able to provide technical details as to what you would wish - He would generally go on the feel of the track and to what parts he enjoyed or didn't.
<snip>
You absolutely do not need to know what goes into making it to either like or dislike it.

You're right, but you and exo didn't get my point at all. It's of course not about playing an instrument. Trivial. It's about credibility.

Shouting:"I don't like it. It doesn't generate any feelings for me." is absolutely ok. It's subjective but this is the only way to judge about any kind of art instantly and instinctively. That doesn't offend me as long as a reasonable rating comes with it. Naturally these kind of shouts most times are given by non-remixers.
Some shout "I don't like this" and give a "good" while others shout "Great stuff" and give the same rating. Obviously both of them didn't say everything what they had in mind.
But for me everything becomes really ridiculous when non-musicians/non-remixing people try to technically rate remixes of musical genres they neither obviously ever dealt with nor can possibly "understand". (I guess you get the point. ) Leave it, don't download, don't listen is my best advice for those.
It's like a vegetarian who wants to tell me how to dress my schnitzel.

That said, I think the main problem of the system is that the subjective shout is combined with an absolutely objective rating, a percentage.
And I think this rating should only be given if you judge by emotional appeal, production value and innovation at least and not emotional appeal alone. And yes, musical skill is an issue, too, but that is included in production value.

You have a thing for Schnitzel

Your right to say to point out these oddities as some comments are either pointless or at worst discouraging - Although i do think mostly the voters and shouters on remix64 control themselves pretty well.. Again, as is usual a small minority spoil it and unfortunately people has a whole seem to get annoyed or disheatened by the odd remark than the possitive or constructive vibes of others which usually far outweigh that sole poor statement.

Ok, we have seem to have come to a point where we understand each other. the question lies.. How the system in place should be changed to a more acceptable way.. Time for the musicians to be constructive?

Views so far...

1) Able the musician the power to ignore/blank out certain people's opinions.

2) Was this review useful (Y/N) feature.

any others?


EDIT: Btw, I have zero influence these days to how remix64 is run or organised. So any suggestions made will be for Markus and Chris to absorb.

[Dumper]

I have an important question.

What's a schnitzel?

[xo]

Romeo, I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that people will express their oppinion, but I get/agree with your point - to a certain extent.

Tas, you're maybe forgetting that this is shouts we're discussing, primarily, so it should be "did you find this shout helpful? [Y/N]". Now am I the only one thinking this is over the top?

I have another suggestion. The counter-shout.

[tas]

My point is Exo - It's all right people having a moan about the system but it's not ever gonna change without some concrete ideas into what should be changed.

The two possibilities were just added to what other's already said - They were not my ideas.

Personally, i see nothing wrong with the system as it is but if people wish to have a rant about it then they should be more constructive themselves about what should be done with the system. Unless this is about trying to change people's thinking and how they should shout/vote/review then it's pretty much a pointless thread because as i've said you can't change how people think - A pointless excersise.

[Romeo Knight]

then only a style-experiencer has the right to judge the remix ?

Of course not.
To make this clear again: In my opinion anyone has the right to judge whatever he wants, that's what this system is for. But then why shouldn't I have the right to judge about the people who disrespect a piece of music that was done with lots of devotion, effort and time? That does not mean to force anyone to like it. If you, oj (Edit:not tas, I mixed it up), are open-minded enough to make reasonable comments about music you're not familiar with, this is great, really. Others don't have this ability. It has a lot to do with maturity, responsibility and respect.
I think this is roughly what DHS meant, too. (?)

you can either take their advice or leave it.should be no prob at all. your decission.

It's a rating, not an advice. That makes the whole difference.

Romeo, I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that people will express their oppinion

I hope that I explained enough now that I absolutely do accept this.
I just don't like narrow-minded people.

I have another suggestion. The counter-shout.

Now this sounds like fun! Let us comment the comments!
On the other side, I'm thinking nothing of the idea to let the remixers decide which shouts show up and which don't.
That's a bit like censorship. (Not really but....whatever.)

Btw, here's a schnitzel:

[tas]

oh heck... There's me thinking Snitzi-whats-it was some type of sausage

Looks nice though

Actually when i was over in Germany a few years back i really did enjoy the food and their beer was to die for! And if i lived over there I probably would!

Anyway back to topic.. Narrow mindedness... Now thats something i relate to. I concur Romeo it's something i dislike too - But it happens i guess and while it's not enjoyable it's something we have to live with rather than get upset about.

This topic is more about the world in general than just about music i think. As people get older it never gets easier to understand but just a little easier to accept.

Oh and BTW Romeo - Just to point out i am not against your view infact I've really enjoyed your views - It's been along time since Rmx64 has had a good debate and for what it's worth I respect your views on this. I hope you don't think i am poo-pooing it!

[tas]

This is a similar equivelent to a schnity-wizy-mabob from Teeside England they call it PARMO... Looks revolting i must say.

But the teesiders seem to think it's something special...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mKVpE4UGJlc

[Infamous]

Pretty interesting discussion this.

What can we really do about it?, everywere.. from just outside your front door to right here in the inner sanctum of your own computer there is always going to be someone critical of you and someone who likes you and what you do. Without them and their comments be they big or small how would we ever really learn?.. and not just about stuff like our audio work, but about human nature and what that other persons about.

I enjoy it, and any comment good or bad is fine for me, i learn from it don't take it personal and just get on with it, if someone has a vendetta against me and feels that they can best perform their side of it by giving me a downvote then brilliant.. rather that than they come around here armed with a badger. and from the comments I do get at least 3 of them will help me to understand my audience (not that that matters in all honesty, i write what i like ^^) but its nice to know what people think.

If someone thinks my latest tune is a trance effort (like the druid thing this started off at) then fair enough, if it really bothers me that much i can explain it all myself in the (i) section of the tune, or hell even come here and say.. its not trance you numpties!, maybe in future kwed could add a feature where we say what style we think its in? .. breakbeat/dance etc and so on.. as max said earlier here though.. sod the luck of the person who has to sort out the back catalogue.. id help but i wouldnt do the whole thing ^^.

maybe it might be an idea to cut the comment section away from the actual vote entirely, have the comments still but stop having the faces next to them, maybe that would remove the visual objections.. but you could still have the persons score next to their name on a list somewere on the page, so if someone IS consistently voting you green googles you can at least pick them out and then private message them and ask why.

Or even better, if your an artist on RKO and R64 Recognises that (which it should do from the log in thingie) then you get an advanced voting thingie where you can vote a little deeper, quality, quantity and erm.. quango's or whatever and that multiple vote gets turned into one single face and boom.. NOW you have an artists view of it.. but i bet a vast majority would get major pissed off at each other.

like me trying to vote romeo on his guitar work from an artistic point of view, i can play the guitar to a fashion, but nowere NEAR as good as him I am no authority on it, and in return id get a bit narced if i found drum patterns of mine being down voted.. alot of effort goes into that shit.

So why change the system at all?.. it just makes life more difficult for markus and chris, its working well enough as it is.. im sure we can all ignore comments aslong as they aint really stupid ones like "Green face" "my eye once bought a puppy that sounded like this.. wheres my cheese? you smell..."

hmmm typing that.. what about a comment report facility? .. so if there IS grounds that a comment is only there because that person wants to downvote and talk shit, people can cause awareness to this by clicking a report button? or is that already up there?.

[LMan]

Hey all!

1. Purpose of R64 reviews

Rational, and supposedly in-depth, analysis of a tune. Doesn't require a musician, but someone who takes care about what he writes. There are clear rules that you are required to accept.
http://www.remix64.com/review_guidelines.html

2. Purpose of the shouts

One-sentence prattle about what comes to mind when listening to the tune. Only basic rules (no offending stuff etc).

3. "Publish" music, like in "Public"

Publishing something automatically means accepting, or at least tolerating the public opinion period.

Changing or limiting the way people are supposed to shout will not change their opinion... it would be like holding a concert in a public square and afterwards shutting eyes and ears as not to know if the audience is cheering or boohing. You can't exclude the "ignorant" who knows shit about your kind of music from that square. If he thinks trance is repetitive (not knowing that this is an essential element of trance), and boring, stuffing his mouth won't change that.

RKO / AR / R64 is all about playing your stuff to the public. It's the virtual stage on a virtual public square, where everyone can come and listen and booh or cheer. Presenting your work to a limited audience of experts is not what this place is about.

4. "Publish" an opinion, like in "Public"

If you "Booh" on a public square while the majority cheers, you'll have to accept that neither the artist nor the rest of the audience will think too highly about that. That's why the shout/review is optional.

[omoroca]

4. "Publish" an opinion, like in "Public"

If you "Booh" on a public square while the majority cheers, you'll have to accept that neither the artist nor the rest of the audience will think too highly about that. That's why the shout/review is optional.

And it is also optional for the arranger to read the shouts/reviews about their uploads. Ever thought about that?

Although I think it's just too tempting for an arranger to read the shouts, bc if you do any artistic work, you most probably WANT to know what people think about it.

That means, if you are an arranger uploading to RKO, and you also register and log into remix64.com, you thereby accept to be judged over, even if you sometimes may feel hurt or treated unfair.

And BTW:
This is a Schnitzel:

[Chris Abbott]

We’re funny that way. We assume our personal preferences are the standard by which all art should be judged. I think the best way to judge the quality of art is by how well the artist achieves his objectives, whatever those might be.

Take the Garfield comic strip, for example. The creator, Jim Davis, set out years ago to create a massively popular comic strip. That was the goal of his art. He has succeeded for decades. When art achieves its goal, it has to be considered great. Sure, Garfield doesn’t make you dance or cry or fall in love. It doesn’t even amuse most adult males. So what? You can’t judge art against objectives it never held. If you judge it against the standard it seeks to achieve, it’s every bit the equal of the Mona Lisa. Likewise for the movie Borat and the TV show South Park.

Now consider the movie Titanic. It was a huge commercial success, but I have a hard time imagining the director’s artistic goal was to make the viewers feel as if someone put their dogs to sleep. Yet that’s what it did. As a business venture, Titanic was brilliant. It sold a lot of tickets. From the perspective of art, I doubt the artist’s objectives and the result lined up, unless they were sadists.

Chris

[xo]

"If you judge it against the standard it seeks to achieve, it’s every bit the equal of the Mona Lisa"

So if I set out to create buttered bread and succeed, it is just as great as the Mona Lisa. Now come on.

That is not to misunderstand the point being made about taking into account the intent as a measure of success with respect to the result. That's just not quite how I will be voting, sorry.

There is universal aesthetics, say mathematics and symmetry, or selective asymmetry, which stands out and above personal taste.

[Tonka]

GAH! This argument is circular and a bit pointless, to an extent...

I think the Mona Lisa is crap. This is not based upon any real artistic understanding - it's just a damn boring painting, IMO.

I have a A3 sized framed picture of a Roland TB303 in my living room (much to my wife's disgust). It's a masterpiece to me, but it's never gonna hang in the Tate...

People like what they like based on years of oustide influences and experiences. Nobody will ever give a completely unbiased view on an artists work - ever.

Only the cleverest/luckiest of artists manage to bridge gaps over the many diverse styles of any particular artform, to make it universally popular and accessible to the masses.