Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Talk freely about the scene, the world of remixing, or anything off-topic unsuitable for the "Fun Forum".
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Dr.Future »

Regarding the interview/article: Find out here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5019&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by xo »

A few thoughts, after a little chat session with Razmo. [I don't have the time to rehash all threads on the forum and may be "out of line"]

The scene is immortal, but it will never be mainstream.

I'm happy to support Chris, what little effect a couple of CD sales makes for him, but I don't quite see my moral obligation in buying CDs and donating to RKO. After all, it'll be pretty much for-free to setup a phpBB site with hashes to remixed files from remixers giving away their remixes for free; not to compare that to the huge integration effort that appear to have gone into these sister sites. You could perhaps argue that the original artists deserve some money from that, I'd have to disagree on that. But anyway...

So I don't feel morally compelled to buy remixes when I'm listening to other remixes, which were made by the scene, for the scene, for free. I do, however, feel sympathetic to the causes of c64audio and other things that tie the scene together, and do want to support it from time to time [especially after getting a nice job recently], although it happens in a quid pro quo fashion and not on a pure altruistic PayPal basis. I do realize the immense sacrifices that have been made over the years and am grateful for them, if I have only been a participant in forums. I also want to buy CDs from artists trying to make a living. I just don't a few sceners being the backbone of the lives of these original SID masters, or commercial remixers.

The scene isn't ever becomming so mainstream that SID owners become rich from royalties, as much as that would be a desirable ideal to have - I don't think so.

I had to put down a few of my thoughts and feelings on the matter, with no intention of throwing gasoline on any fire.

But I may be missing a thing or two...

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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by LMan »

xo wrote: You could perhaps argue that the original artists deserve some money from that, I'd have to disagree on that. But anyway...
That's the key problem - it is not your decision wether the original artists want to make use of their intellectual property rights, no matter if you disagree or not. As stated earlier, the whole "free" thingy works on terms of a gentlemen's agreement. And as Chris indicated, not all the original composers are overly happy about their tunes being given away for free in masses - which is their right of course. So what kind of scene could thrive if it disregards the people who form the groundwork? Paying them back a trickle of income from the CD sales can make all the difference, because it's rather a manifest form of paying tribute than paying money. The same goes for CD sales. Noone is making a profit from it. It's all about paying a tribute.

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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Razmo »

LMan: But what will such composers do with their so called rights, if this whole scene was to close down? ... I've been thinking about that... will they go and find a new "Chris" in ... say... Timbaland? ... I hardly think they will find what they want, so what will they do with all their talents at that point?.. you could also see it this way, that they should be honoured someone want to remix their old stuff, and that a lot of people still care about their music ... as I see it, and as it seem to point at with Chris' "rant" in this thread, that there IS perhaps nothing to be gained from trying to go commercial with this remix business (sorry Chris, just trying to be objective here), so why should a few composers cling to their rights like this, if nothing will come of it anyway? arrogance? Pride?

IF, by the way, the composers really have an interrest in getting their old stuff on the buying table again, I suggest they start to act like it... where are they on the forum? ... I've never seen Hubbard, Galway, Daglish or any of the other older composers in here... and if they care for their music, they should at least interact with their target customers.

Now I'm personally not the type of person who believe in this royalty thing musicians have... in fact only musicians and actors are of the few who enjoy payment for work they did ONCE in their life... they do next to nothing about their old works anymore, they just sit back and want to shovel money in on things they did years ago.... what would you say, if a sofa company demanded royalties for people sitting in their sofa´s !? ... I think that as with all other normal work, they should keep working to gain...

Now that is just MY point of view of course and reality look quite different, but I, like XO do really not feel, that those said composers should get anything until they start working for the scene at least.
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by LMan »

Believe it or not: I have a similar attitude regarding music and rights. But it's also neither up to me or you to decide what they wish to do with their intellectual property rights, and having a different opinion does not elevate us above law.

Also, let's hypothetically ignore their rights. It would be a god damn shame if C64Audio.com was to close down, wouldn't it. Personally, in 30 years or so, I'll be happy to have a bunch of physical audio CDs to remind me that this remix scene was far more than just a download site and a forum. The BITLives, the Remix64 site (was inspired by c64audio), hell most of the scene owes a LOT to C64Audio.com... and the composers.

The attitude you display towards the original composers reminds me of the scene in "Life of Brian":
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Chris Abbott »

OK. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't, right now:

1) Close down C64Audio.com
2) Take all my unsold CDs down the tip
3) Cancel all projects
4) Tear up my publishing contracts
5) Waste my energy on something else.

It would take an hour to do all that (there would probably be a queue at the dump).

Because it seems to me all that anyone can give me is reasons why I'm redundant, unnecessary, and unwanted*. Why shouldn't I say "fuck you all. I'm off." and go? A weaker person would have already shut up shop: I'm still here partly because this is where my friends are, and partly because I have promises to live up to, and responsibilities.

I've been through denial and depression. I guess now I'm into being f*cking angry. I guess next is acceptance and moving on...

Chris

* Apart from my usual band of friends and supporters. You know who you are. I think we're outnumbered :(
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Chris Abbott »

In this world, there has to be something you can do to stop the pernicious process of turning the hours of your life into money.

The only way creative people have is their output.

Which, by some gift of reality has the potential to make money for you even after you've released it: and potentially help free you from the bonds of oppression.

Other, spiteful people, just want to take the hope away. They want everyone else chained to the millstone seeing life drip away as you subsist from month to month, just as they are.

I wanted to see the composers have the success their music deserved. Maybe if they had composed in different circumstances, they would.

But not here. Not now. For shame.
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by xo »

Thanks for your frank oppinion. I'll exit now.

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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Chris Abbott »

xo wrote:Thanks for your frank oppinion. I'll exit now.
I don't know why, I didn't think I was having a go at you. I'd be perfectly happy for people to buy the CDs because of it being a commercial transaction in which both parties get something good. The problem here runs structurally far deeper than that. I'm as uncomfortable with the idea of charity or pity as you probably are.

Oh, you've gone. I wasn't even addressing you, but apparently everyone can be as blunt as they like to me, but as soon as I say anything back, people start leaving the party as if I'm the one that started it*?

Well, last one off turn off the lights, apparently the party pooper has arrived.

Chris

* Although technically I DID start the party.
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Razmo »

Chris: Now first off, no one here sees you as "dispensable"... BELIEVE ME!!!!!!! even I have heard from XO's "mouth" after a long debate privately about the scene, that you are the MAIN MAN behind a lot of effort here! ... now I know what depression is, and how it feels! I'm having one right now, at this very moment to tell you the truth! ... and I know you tend to think negatively, and that's what I "smell" here! ...

None of us have a reason for wanting C64audio to be a failure! .. I bet we all want to see it thrive and blossom, but after 10 years of your hard work, I must say, you are one goodhearted fellow! ... I think you should do as much as you want yourself, but don't destroy yourself in the process! ... not for ANYONE here in the scene, and no matter WHAT anybody says...

I can surely understand your frustration... but maybe it's time to give it a bigger thought, and decide weather you should abandon ship, or mend the hole in the ship... I hope the last one will be the outcome, but please don't waste your sanity doing it :wink: :confusion:

Why are you putting so much effort into this, that you end up depressed!?
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Razmo »

Chris: even IF this commercial aspect should plummet to the ground, and the legal concepts of this scene go haywire, then I'm 100% certain that this scene will find it's way to the "underground"... I understand what you mean by "friends"... I've got it like that myself, but I'm certain, that all friends will be at his "underground", and that the spirit would live on...

now of course it's a glorificated dream to have it all happen legaly and all that, but IF (and I'll repeat; IF) it just won't cut it in the long run, then I'd certainly go for the second best option...
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Chris Abbott »

Razmo wrote:Why are you putting so much effort into this, that you end up depressed!?
And that, my friend, is the million dollar question. Or rather the free downloadable question.

C64 music used to make me happy, and excited. I had great times with Kenz and Boz. Exciting times. We were going to change the world.

It's all gone. It's been six years since I was last pleased by the reaction to anything I did.

Technically there's still a lot left that C64Audio.com could do: R64 vol 3, Tonka's stuff, Moog's stuff, other micromusic stuff... stuff which really used the SID. Compilations like Last Ninja for digital download. All that stuff is intellectually a good idea. I've got to talk to Tonka about this stuff, since at the moment he seems to be the only hope that C64Audio.com has for continuing doing anything, and he at least has far more energy and optimism than I do currently. I dunno, maybe once I talk to him I'll catch his enthusiasm.

Maybe I'm just suffering very late Boz-withdrawal symptoms :)

Chris
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by merman »

Razmo, I haven't understood your attitude all the way through this thread, and that latest post about the composers "working" for the scene proves it.

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.


The C64 remix scene is always going to be a niche market, and Chris is the one who helped carve it out. Sure we'd all like it to be a bigger niche, and not have to put up with the underminers digging their way in to steal nuggets from our rich seam of talent, but running around the cave shouting "What are we going to do?" isn't helping.

Err, got carried away with the underground metaphor. Back on track. :D

Let Chris do what he does. Let the bandwagon roll on, even if it hasn't picked up many new passengers.
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Razmo »

Is it also fair, that the original artists can just sign a contract, and then lean back and wait for you to make sure money start flowing in? ... and that if it does not, then it's your fault? ... I'd be as mean as to say, that if what you've done so far does not work, then it's not you who is the problem, but more likely that the concept does not work in the long run... I'd REALLY like to see these original artist WAKE UP, and do something for their work of art instead of letting it be up to one soul, and his remixers... I wonder how sales would go, if Hubbard, Daglish and the others did some remixes!? :wink:
Regards, Jess D. Skov-Nielsen (Razmo).
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Re: Fatal server crash (and the state of the scene)

Post by Chris Abbott »

merman wrote:Razmo, I haven't understood your attitude all the way through this thread, and that latest post about the composers "working" for the scene proves it.

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.


The C64 remix scene is always going to be a niche market, and Chris is the one who helped carve it out. Sure we'd all like it to be a bigger niche, and not have to put up with the underminers digging their way in to steal nuggets from our rich seam of talent, but running around the cave shouting "What are we going to do?" isn't helping.

Err, got carried away with the underground metaphor. Back on track. :D

Let Chris do what he does. Let the bandwagon roll on, even if it hasn't picked up many new passengers.
Thanks Andrew, though actually the wagon feels a bit light these days... and I did kind of provoke the discussion by appearing to be even more commercially suicidal than usual... (which, to be truthful, is exactly how I feel).

I'm not even sure the situation is fixable. I can't force people to unhear the thousands of remixes they've heard over the years. I can't force them to be excited by new remixes. And the scene isn't really growing in terms of the fanbase, who are also aging. It would be nice if there was a whole new demographic out there who loved SID music but who had managed to miss this scene. I used to believe that. But unless they're the micromusic lot (who don't seem the nostalgic type, oddly), I think our chances of reaching them are fairly remote without doing something radically different, without a budget.
I wonder how sales would go, if Hubbard, Daglish and the others did some remixes!?
Did you notice that Rob Hubbard PERFORMED on the Back in Time Live DVD? Did you notice that Ben Daglish PERFORMED on the Back in Time Live DVD?

Did you BUY one of the over-600 unsold DVDs I have in my loft?

There's your answer.

Sorry if that was a bit harsh, though. I know you're trying to cheer me up in some strange, indefinable way.

Chris
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